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Thread: Fledgling in the Khala
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    1. #1
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      Fledgling in the Khala

      Yup, not even a propper Zealot yet, just another 100% pure new guy to SC2 multi. I'm Ivan, aka Carnifex, or just Carni - nice to meet you all.

      Basically, why i'm starting my MP career in SC2 is because i was bored once and decided to play a game vs AI - the game was over in about 10 mins and i was completely demolished. So i was like "ok maybe i switched to hard by accident..." As it were, i didn't. Went for another one - ended pretty much the same. Then i was like "No sodding AI is doing this to me!!!" So i read a few tutorials, watched several replays, and took my fave race, the Protoss once again out for a spin. Went for very easy to learn the hotkeys tried a few basic builds, like Void Ray rush and 4 Gateway, now i'm killing the AI on hard (is 5:34 mins good enough for the 1st Void Ray to pop out?)

      Several things still bug me though. For example, how to build and expand while fighting/harassing. Do you have buildings set to numbers then just hammer away, or...?
      How to make a transition from Void Rays in case it doesn't work? I tried switching to 4 Gateway by building a proxy pylon near the opponent's base and researching warp gate while hammering with void rays. But i didn't have enough cash to pull it off - is there a way to do it properly? Thanks in advance!

    2. #2
      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      A void ray "rush" is a very expensive strategy, though it is extremely lethal until platinum/diamond. Because of its cost, the transition out of it will usually be a slow process. Im not an expert protoss, but these are the things I would try after the void rays fail
      - Make 1-2 Pheonix and use them to harass the opponents mineral line (Graviton beam the workers then fly away)
      -Start with just 1-2 gates building zealots since they are cheap but powerful units, then once you are done with the void rays you will have a small defensive force that can easily be bulked up
      -I would try to expand just before you hit him with the first void ray. Expanding is very expensive and will probably delay the 2nd/3rd void ray a bit, but it will be more than worth it just a couple minutes later. Plus, you can be pretty sure that he will not be leaving his base to stop you as long as you are attacking him with your rays.

      Hope some of this helps
      Add me: Moderas character code: 933

      "I wish I was your derivative, so that I could lie tangent to your curves." Physics jokes ftw

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      Senior Member Sillierabbit's Avatar
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      I am a protoss player. IMO VR, like Moderas says, is a hard strategy to pull off. Even in high level play very few players rush VR. It is just too easily countered by terran and/or protoss. If you are as new as you say, I suggest you do safer builds and work on fundamentals before strategy. Try doing a 2gate or 3gate and just concentrate on pumping a mix of units out. The most important tips I give is always keep mineral and gas below 500/500 each and ALWAYS be building probes. You will find that these two tips will automatically help you out a lot.

      Question though, are you killing the AI on hard within the first 5-7 minutes? That shouldn't really count. You can kill insane AI by proxying as well. You should always expand when you are doing a big push. I.E. if I am doing a 2gate 1robo build, I might do a timing push with 1-2 immortals and then save money for expo. But at the same time I would be spending my gas on sentries. Once my units get to his base, it should be around the right time to place that expo. And yes to build units, hotkey all your production facilities. The only problem is if they are warp gates you will need to find a pylon to place your units and spam away.

      VR + 4gate is very bad. Fast VR rush and 4gate by themselves are almost considered all-in strategies ... as in if you get countered hard and your opponent is competent, you will automatically lose. So I would never advise going those types of builds. Focus on things like 2 gate 1 robo, or 1 gate 1 robo, or 1 gate 1 stargate, or 2 gate 1 stargate, etc. Or 3 gate council for blink and/or legs. If you need help on build orders or anything else, just ask. HF and GL

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      Hmmm just curious, how would you counter a void rush? because what i do is, right after the cybernetics core i build 2 assimilators then continue with a probe+pylon and stargate so on and so forth, so when the cybernetics core and stargate are finished i have more than enough to build a void ray and upgrade it's weapons (i CB them both). when i get to the opponent's base i go behind it and pump the rays up on rafineries/assimilators - this is usually done before any defences come my way and at that point 2 rays can easily tear through any marines/vikings/stalkers/queens/hydras. only problem would be immortals right?


      But let's go back to the 4 gateway. when my 1st gate is done i build a zealot and when the cybernetic core is finished i make a stalker+warpgate upgrade while pumping probes and pylons - at that point i usually have 15ish probes. oh yes, at supply 9 i build the 1st pylon and send the little guy to scout and when i find the base i build another pylon nearby. so my questions are: how many and which units do i make before the warpgate is finished? when do i make the push? what unit configuration do i use - mainly how many sentries would be enough? and finally, how the heck do you set a waypoint for the warpgates, or rather, how do you make the army go immediately towards the enemy base when you warp them next to your pylon?


      as for build orders, right now i'm pretty comfortable with the basic opener, but when it comes to mid game i sort of don't know what to do next. observers, immortals, collosi...but i guess that comes with practise and quite a few lost matches.

      uhm...what's expo?
      no, it took me about 15 ish minutes to end the fight vs hard AI, i just built the 1st void ray in 5:30 mins. in my first try i built it after 7 minutes...

      yes and thank you both for your input! much appreciated

    5. #5
      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      1. To counter a void ray rush the key thing is to scout. If you dont know it is coming, you will not be able to stop it. Once you see a protoss with a stargate all you need to do is put 1-2 cannons behind your minerals and make 4-6 stalkers and any void rays they send should be smashed unless they bring in 3+ at a time. As a Terran player myself, I dont even put up turrets. If I think I am going to get void rayed I simply wait for it to come and then stim about 10 marines under them and they melt until they get charged.

      2. 1 zealot 1 stalker is pretty good you are teching up to warp gates, most build orders recommend that. Just remember if you see the opponent has more units, you may want to make some of your own. You should make the push as soon as all 4 of your gates have received the warp gate upgrade. Stalkers are usually the favorite for a 4 gate push due to their quick speed, ranged attack, and the fact they are a pretty good all around unit. You can set a rally for warp gates like you can for gateways, but you can select the units while they are warping and issue them order before they even finish.

      3. Observers are always good, they are a reliable scout and can be used with your army to prevent any Dark Templars, infesters, baneling bombs, and all that bad stuff. As for immortals/Colossi it really depends on your opponent. If you try to 4 gate and it fails and you saw that he had a lot of marauders or roaches, Immortals are great. Likewise if you scouted a lot of marines/zerglings Colossus or High Templars are great.

      4. "Expo" just means expansion or creating a second base. Though it takes 24 probes to fully saturate minerals, each probe after 18 is actually slightly less efficient than the last because with that many they occasionally try to mine from the same place. To avoid this, start up an expansion and move half your probes there. 2 bases of 12 is greater income than one of 24 (Very minimally, there is a Team-liquid thread that goes in more depth). Plus, doing this gives you 2 nexus so you can build twice as many probes (To saturate your new base and finish your old one) and twice as many chrono boosts.

      Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to answer everything.
      Add me: Moderas character code: 933

      "I wish I was your derivative, so that I could lie tangent to your curves." Physics jokes ftw

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      Yes i see. Once again the importance of scouting. Ok, noted
      So basically whatever i do and however i play i should have 3 or 4 warp gates as they're obviously the backbone of every army. And thinking about it, robotics facility - better than stargate as it gives a lot more flexibility. Ok, time to test this new found knowledge!
      Oh and beating a hard AI in 9 mins ain't too bad....is it?

    7. #7
      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      AI are wierd. They are extremely easily cheesed and seem to fall apart in the late game so it is hard to judge what is good. Also, if you are on one base you can probably only afford 2 gates+ 1 robo, then once you expand add on 1 gate+ tech/upgrades. You want as few buildings to be idle as possible.
      Add me: Moderas character code: 933

      "I wish I was your derivative, so that I could lie tangent to your curves." Physics jokes ftw

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      yeah but i manage to make 2 gates + robotics at 17 ish, make 2 immortals(CB) and usually 2 stalkers. then at 20 or so i can easily afford another 2 gates at which point i go for an attack, build a proxy pylon and just charge while warping stalkers. and while moving in i have more than enough cash to make another 6-8 stalkers which is enough as long as i keep the immortals alive. and that's from a single base

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      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      If it wouldn't be a hassle, would you mind posting a replay of you playing? Either in league or against a computer is fine, I just feel like me and the others on this forum can give better advice if we can see and not just read. After reading your last post I was trying to visualize your build order but this Carnifex build order test - Downloads - StarCraft 2 Strategy was the best I could come up with in my head. My apologies though, the play is really sloppy and I just all together stopped macroing during the push. If you could post a replay I would love to watch it, or if you cant maybe you can watch the one I attempted and tell me how close it is to your real build order?
      Add me: Moderas character code: 933

      "I wish I was your derivative, so that I could lie tangent to your curves." Physics jokes ftw

    10. #10
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      hmmm ok for some weird reason i can't upload or download...suits me right for watching cheap porn. ok until i figure out what the hell is going on, i'll just post the build here.

      pylon at 9 - when it starts building i send the probe to scout
      when pylon is done i stack 2 probes and CB them
      Gateway at 11
      Assimilator at 14
      Cybernetics Core + Pylon at 15
      2 Probes(CB)
      Second Assimilator at 19 + Zealot and 2 Probes(CB) + Warpgate research
      2 Probes(CB), Zealot, Pylon and Robotics Facility at 23
      -Another Gateway, Pylon and Zealot
      Robotics Facility is finished - 1st Immortal (CB)
      Warpgate is finished - Stalker
      3rd and 4th Gateway, another Immortal(CB)

      - now i have 2 Immortals, 3 Stalkers, 3 Zealots and 4 Warpgates - i send them plus a probe to enemy base (that's 8:30 mins ish), build a proxy pylon, attack and just pump more Stalkers not caring about cash cause at that point i have 1200 minerals and around 700 gas. And when the Warpgate research is finished i summon Stalkers as soon as cooldown is over.

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