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Thread: Zerg- 2 Gate
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    1. #1
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      Zerg- 2 Gate

      The situation:
      -I saw a 2 gate coming early after putting down a 15 hatch
      -I cancelled it to get early roaches and spine crawlers

      Was that the right decision? I ended up losing (probably cuz of other decisions afterwards).

      Here's the replay
      1v1 PvZ

    2. #2
      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Hey mate

      I will look at your replay a bit later, but I can give you a general idea of what could have happened when you see this. First off, 2 gates isnt a lot, and protoss do take a while to produce decent amounts of units to push, if you take a 4 warpgate rush, youll find it doesnt come out until a good 7-8 mins into the game sometimes.

      If you think about it your expansion will probably be at break even, and you will be able to outproduce them easily. The issue is feeling comfortable enough with getting away with it. So in short, no what you did is natural and not wrong in that way. However, if this means going on a build path that you have no idea or have not accounted for, then stick with what you know, as you will most likely perform better against any strategy if you have a clear idea of your build, and are familiar with it.

      It comes down to what you feel comfortable with as zerg, and as ive seen with many zerg, the first attack is always the scariest and hardest to deal with, as with zerg youll drone a lot, but this kicks them back harder in the mid game whan you have this economy that is much stronger than theirs.

      Anyway will watch the replay and let you know how you did
      The mind is both willing and able, the hands are too busy reaching for the beer bottle..... Add me on the SEA and NA servers: Flamga #377

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    3. #3
      Senior Member Cazaril's Avatar
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      ok a couple of things from what i've seen

      scout earlier. so that you can make your decision quicker.
      2 when you cancelled the hatch you sat on 300 minerals a long time. if you are worried about being early rushed drop 2 - 3 spine crawlers at the front of your base and then build more drones
      3. you had 13 drones at 7mins. you really really really need more (as a zerg player that struggles building drones sometimes i know)
      4. more drones.
      5. you needed ling speed here to help with the stalkers so they couldn't keep running away
      6. when seeing so many stalkers i wouldnt have built the mutas i would have instead teched to hydras but that 2nd attack really showed how more drones would have benefited you
      7. that 2nd hatch was a waste as well - you didnt have enough drones to pump out the minerals to sustain 2 hatches like that

      Hope that helps

    4. #4
      Junior Member Grathak's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cazaril View Post
      6. when seeing so many stalkers i wouldnt have built the mutas i would have instead teched to hydras but that 2nd attack really showed how more drones would have benefited you
      Out of curiosity and without having seen the specific game in question (but I think your comment is more general anyway), why would you rather go for Hydras instead of Mutas against mass Stalkers? If I'm not mistaken Hydras have less Hitpoints and are less agile than Mutas. Does the increased damage output of Hydras weigh up those details so much?

      Sorry if this might be a stupid question, but I tend to almost always go Muta instead of Hydra in my games, as Hydras feel more versatile - but perhaps that's just another weak point in my play, not seeing the real place and value for Hydras yet.

      Grathak #706 (EU) :: GMT +1

      Zerging around in EU 3v3 bronze leage on fridays - being flabbergasted to see people who actually know what they're doing ingame on livestream the rest of the time. ^^

    5. #5
      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Nah mate its a valid question and I started the same way. The issue is this:

      If he is going defensive, then yes mutalisk will be better to get some harass in, and get map control which is good for expansions and generally scaring the shit out of them.

      If they are offensive, then especially with 4gate rushes and pushes or constant aggression, then having mobility is pointless, as mutalisk will not be able to stop a force of stalkers themselves, but more to the point, you will be focusing more on defence that youll have little time to harass, and they can just keep a small force of stalkers in their base and natural and this will make harass for you a loss in money.

      The use of hydras come down to creep spread. If you think about if you have 2 base, with creep spread out of your base, (which you should when you have hydras) then they can effectively defend on the creep. The thing with hydras, and why they cost so much is the same reason as marines, they have a hell huge DPS, with small damage but high atk speed, which means fast target change. So a good summary would be:

      > As before high DPS
      > Faster then all gateway units on creep
      > Work well with roaches who have a range of 4, combined with hydras range of 6 it makes a good mix.
      > It should be noted that hydras "counter" (i hate using that word XD but itll give you an idea of how effective they are) all gateway units, if used effectively (with roaches and kiting when needed and good positioning).

      The only way to show it, would be to go on the unit tester, make a generic stalker based army with what you want, make mutalisk and try to take it out, then use a roach hydra based army with about the same resource amount as the muta army, and watch the difference itll make.

      This pretty much just says try out both combinations yourself with the tester, and find out what works, but youll rarely find any zerg who will go muta ling against protoss unless there is a blaring reason to do so, all because of that first timing push, it being a 4 gate or not. By all means get both hydra den and spire but make sure you only produce what you need, the exception being corruptors for colossi
      The mind is both willing and able, the hands are too busy reaching for the beer bottle..... Add me on the SEA and NA servers: Flamga #377

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    6. #6
      Senior Member IceCraft's Avatar
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      Flamga speaks the truth!
      IceCraft 798 - Error? I'll add you then :) Gimme a shout with your info ^_^
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      Thanks for the feedback. I guess I need to work on drone timing.

      Also about the muta/hydra thing, I heard guardian shield nullifies mutalisk's splash damage.

    8. #8
      Senior Member smagee's Avatar
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      I wouldn't say "nullifies", so much as "significantly impacts". Guardian Shield is potent against Mutalisks in the same manner that it is against Marines, albeit not to the same degree. I wouldn't recommend going muta against a protoss that's going heavy ground unless you can ensure that you get a rather large swarm (I'd think 15-20+) as well as a decent ground support force (roaches + lings, if possible). That way you're less reliant upon the splash to bring things down.

      Mutas' greatest strength, obviously, is their mobility; the Protoss can't have sentries *everywhere*, so have them waste the energy and pull back to a new location . However, as Flamga notes above, Muta vs. 'toss is not usually the strongest matchup except in somewhat specific circumstances.
      -smagee (#948), GMT -8

    9. #9
      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by smagee View Post
      I wouldn't say "nullifies", so much as "significantly impacts". Guardian Shield is potent against Mutalisks in the same manner that it is against Marines, albeit not to the same degree. I wouldn't recommend going muta against a protoss that's going heavy ground unless you can ensure that you get a rather large swarm (I'd think 15-20+) as well as a decent ground support force (roaches + lings, if possible). That way you're less reliant upon the splash to bring things down.

      Mutas' greatest strength, obviously, is their mobility; the Protoss can't have sentries *everywhere*, so have them waste the energy and pull back to a new location . However, as Flamga notes above, Muta vs. 'toss is not usually the strongest matchup except in somewhat specific circumstances.
      Thanks smagee, that helps quite alot XD
      The mind is both willing and able, the hands are too busy reaching for the beer bottle..... Add me on the SEA and NA servers: Flamga #377

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    10. #10
      Member McWill's Avatar
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      i'm not a zerg player so i apologise if i say anything wrong but something may be of value and i'm bored. ^^

      ultimately the low drone count is what cost you the game.
      but a short reply won't help you improve your game or me kill some time A protoss player has almost no chance of victory if the drone and hatch count gets out of control and thus he needs to either harass you so you commit more of your larva to units, or to fast expand himself to keep up with the macro game.

      in your game he went for the former and he got you to completely stop making drones. Personally i think the game really ended around the 8min mark so don't put too much thought into the events after that. his worker count was almost double yours and he had superior unit production capabilities aswell, the additional 10mins were due to protoss mistakes so well done to you for not going down without a fight ^^

      i don't think Zerg can be very aggressive early on vs a good protoss player, if you commit all your larva to zerglings a wall or forcefield with a voidray will end the game, aggressive roach play is easily stopped by stalkers and/or immortals and if you lose your early units in a push you have no choice but to make more units instead of drones to stay in the game, protoss can make both. its better as zerg to defend until the protoss makes a mistake or over commits to harass before punishing them rather than blind aggression, which brings us to scouting.

      vision is a necessity for zerg, its how you decide if its safe to make drones or not so you really need to be scouting constantly, spreading creep and positioning overlords. Against protoss -on most maps- its safe to send your starting overlord immediately to the enemy base in addition to a drone if you like, its in no danger until the first stalker pops, normally this will be quite fast so move it out of sight when the cybernetics core completes, but in this situation you would have seen that he really had nothing to threaten you with after the zealot harass so it was a good time to squeeze in some drones. Or if you spotted a very fast cybernetics core you would know he could not possibly have anything more than 1 zealot headed your way, so its safe to make some more drones. when the stalker is out you can run a single zergling up the ramp to see what units he has (and how many) or you can sacrifice an overlord. Having lings on the xel'naga watchtower is a great way to know if the enemy intends to attack any time soon and may make you feel a little more comfortable making drones.

      as said above, spine crawlers really shut down super early aggression, if you kill all his early units then you are ahead of the game, you killed a big push that the enemy sacrificed a good economy for so he must defend and regroup, thus its a really good time to make drones as the next scary attack is not going to be for a few more minutes.

      drones aside what you were doing was aprox right. roaches will end zealot pressure and lings are good to surround stalkers and give you map control (with speed). they are less important issues i wouldn't worry much about at this stage like not pulling guys out of gas or creed spread but basically you were doing the right thing, but didn't have the economy to support it

      hope you find something here of use
      - Will

      McWill 243 - EU

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