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Thread: How do I counter a rush?
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    1. #1
      Senior Member Lemanruss's Avatar
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      How do I counter a rush?

      Hi, Iīve played with zergs for some time, after leaving the terrans, and today in a game, I got owned with a rush. The problem is that usually I get to see my mistakes, and learn how to evolve so this wonīt happen. but in this game I have no clue how could I possibly have done to be able to resist and/or counter.

      The replay is posted in ZPvPT got owned - Starcraft 2 Replays - Starcraft 2 Forum

      Please, help me to mutate from larvae to infestor :P.
      Thanks
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      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lemanruss View Post
      Hi, Iīve played with zergs for some time, after leaving the terrans, and today in a game, I got owned with a rush. The problem is that usually I get to see my mistakes, and learn how to evolve so this wonīt happen. but in this game I have no clue how could I possibly have done to be able to resist and/or counter.

      The replay is posted in ZPvPT got owned - Starcraft 2 Replays - Starcraft 2 Forum

      Please, help me to mutate from larvae to infestor :P.
      Thanks
      Hey man, well first before I look at the replay it is a 2v2, so itll require a different approach than that of a 1v1 play. The issue is that both players go early rush, then its hard to defend regardless, however I will have a look at the replay when I get a chance to see whats going on but typically there two forms of play in teams:

      > team decides to get armies quickly to get early damage, hard to defend but will give you the advantage if you do enough damage.
      > team decided to macro, defending whatever the other team throw at them, which is also hard, but defend the first push without too many losses youll be in a good lead.

      Maybe start there? If you are already doing that then thats awesome, but I will have a look laters and give you specific feedback for that map.
      The mind is both willing and able, the hands are too busy reaching for the beer bottle..... Add me on the SEA and NA servers: Flamga #377

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      Senior Member Lemanruss's Avatar
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      Thank you very much, the problem is that actually I was going to mass roaches, but I got owned before having time to that, snice zerg base can't be "isolated" and in this map we and my mate are quite a long distance to be able to deffend one to the other.

      Thanks a lot
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      Junior Member IDevski's Avatar
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      Well im not the most experienced but from what i saw your scouting did good. The toss put up a second gateway instead of the cyber. core, which is what i usually see/do. So that could have gave you a hint of early pressure. For sure the triple barracks from red would have set off an alarm. To defend...ehh spines at that expand with the queens for transfus and lings? maybe no expand? not really sure for the defend but that's my take on it. Oh and just keeping that scout at thier xel naga wouldve gave an earlier heads up.
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      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Ok had a look at the replay, as idevski said excellent scouting however that map is really bad for 2v2 as its very hard to defend each others bases. Do first what could you do to tell they were rushing:

      > You saw 2 gate and 3 rax in their bases. Also no gas went for terran (im pretty sure) the only reason you would want to go 3 rax is for early aggression, and same for toss, most economic or 4 gate builds need cyber core for warpgate, or the delayed unit production for an early expand.

      > You should have kept a unit at the xelnaga i.e. built 2 lings sent em off there. its cheap and easy scouting, but that wouldnt have done you much here as the rush was too big to counter straight away.

      So to counter something like this, if you see early aggression, cancel your FE, or keep it and make sure you have a nice mix of units, i.e. 2-3 queens, lings and spines. I think rushing for roaches may have been too greedy but you got your pool too late so it would have been a struggle to hold.

      Generally in teams I would go 14 pool unless I see they go tech and not mass rax or gate. However the defence distance on that map is the killer. Maybe go a more aggressive build?
      The mind is both willing and able, the hands are too busy reaching for the beer bottle..... Add me on the SEA and NA servers: Flamga #377

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      Senior Member Lemanruss's Avatar
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      Thanks a lot for the help. I thought as well that probably I shouldnīt have gone to roaches, but I didnīt know what to build to defend against them because lings are fragile and it didnīt take long enough to build banelings. and roaches looked like a a better option.
      I thought queens were a unit only useful for larvae, spread tumor, and air defense. I know they are good against lings, but because zerlings are aesy to kill.
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      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lemanruss
      Maybe spend sometime using only a couple units to get a feel for them, but as for early pushes, lings/queens/spines are gold, lets you save some larvae and its easy to defend

      I would also change your thinking from what do i need right now to what can I use right now, no point in spotting the rush coming and thinking oh i need roaches quick, it isnt going to happen, you already have lings, queens and spines available, plus whatever tech you already planned on getting. ie if you saw that big push coming maybe throw down 4-5 spines in your natural/choke and build up some lings and just macro. they might break through but this will let your team mate build up to more powerful tech and get a nice army. If you can die slowly, and let your team mate win the match for both of you then its still a win, make them work to kill you

      Well i would say add me but i assume your on the EU server? otherwise go checkout OMZ and SCVrushes live matches, which i think i already said, but if you are on the NA server as well then hit me up
      The mind is both willing and able, the hands are too busy reaching for the beer bottle..... Add me on the SEA and NA servers: Flamga #377

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      Senior Member Lemanruss's Avatar
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      THanks for all that information, I have quite a lot to learn. Actualy I have an account on USA as well as in EU, the problem is that usually noone is connected due to time difference (wich is the reason for not gettin in to the league). But I see a lot of games of the leage, most of them.

      I always "hated" spinecrawlers beacuse they are a "defensive" system, and spending mineral in a unit unable to move always seemed bad idea, like a "last resource", also they don't have a lot of life and are not really good at damage (compared to terran bunkers, which was my main race), so I always thought spinecrawlers to be crappy.

      Once again,Thanks, I really appreciate those lessons, and advices.
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      Junior Member Grathak's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Flamga
      Quote Originally Posted by Lemanruss
      Flamga already pointed out some more details regarding the queen (armored, high health, ...) so queens can really make a difference in a fight.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lemanruss View Post
      [...] I always "hated" spinecrawlers beacuse they are a "defensive" system, and spending mineral in a unit unable to move always seemed bad idea, like a "last resource" [...]
      You know that spinecrawlers can move? You can uproot them, move them, and re-root them in a better spot - with a lot of spines you could even try to do something similar to siegetank-hopping, i.e. have 2 lines of spines, keep the front one rooted (and ready to attack), move the other one ahead, re-root and repeat. Problem is that spines can't attack while uprooted, and can only root on creep - and they're rather slow in re-rooting (12 seconds, an eternity)..
      Last edited by Grathak; 11-23-2010 at 08:39 AM.

      Grathak #706 (EU) :: GMT +1

      Zerging around in EU 3v3 bronze leage on fridays - being flabbergasted to see people who actually know what they're doing ingame on livestream the rest of the time. ^^

    10. #10
      Senior Member NightlyNews's Avatar
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      A spinecrawler is a borderline necessity in team games. Since zerg can't wall off most people go after the zerg and it will buy your teammate time to come help.

      Also spinecrawlers are strong as hell. If it was possible to put down a spinecrawler off creep crawler rushing would win every game XP

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