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    1. #1
      Junior Member coolsmelly's Avatar
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      Question Hard Maps for FE

      Alright THEUEN,

      I play all the races a fair bit, but mostly Zerg, and so usually I'm looking to FE in any situation that allows, which usually means going to natural at 14.

      Some maps, however, I find this really hard to do because the natural is so hard to defend (like Zel'Naga Caverns) so what I'm thinking is maybe FE'ing into a different mineral patch, for example the one north (or south, depending on spawn point) of your base, the raised mineral patch with a ramp on both sides, with rocks covering one of the ramps.
      Does this sound viable or does it spread your forces/econ too much? What do you guys think?
      coolsmelly, number coming soon (as soon as I check it)

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      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      If you plan on FE'ing it should always be at your natural. At a higher level players are going to notice your lack of pool/drones/units and scout the other expos and you wont be able to defend one thats so far away. As for maps that FE is hard on (lol) I would say only Steppes is small enough to make you even think twice and even then you can easily pool > hatch and be fine against Terran.
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      Agree with Moderas.
      You're basically trying to hide an expansion which is a HUGE risk. You're basically counting on the fact that your opponent is bad and will not scout or realize that you're behind in army and tech.

      I would say as a general rule of thumb only 14 hatch against a terran if you're having trouble defending your expansion and make sure you put an overlord on the expansion to scout for any bunkers.

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      Junior Member coolsmelly's Avatar
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      yeah well I'm not saying to hide your expansion, so to speak, at least that's not the intention of FE'ing elsewhere but your natural, only that in maps where the natural is harder to defend, but other resources are easier to defend than the natural.
      I get what you guys are saying but the point isn't to be like "herp derp I'm hiding my stuff from my enemy" it's just that it might be easier to defend.

      Would a better option be a faster third base to just get a bigger army in order to gain map control?
      coolsmelly, number coming soon (as soon as I check it)

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      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      For the first part- You have to think about the mobility of your army. With 1-2 creep tumors even hydras can cover the distance from main to natural with more than enough time to defend. On the other hand, you wont have creep spread to any non-natural expansion until well in to the mid game, giving them plenty of time to punish the expansion. Not to mention, if you defend with lings/blings early instead of roaches a choke is actually a bad thing for your army. Lings fight better when they can surround.

      Second part- That depends on your play style and what your opponent is doing. If you are macroing on 2 base and your opponent still doesnt have an expo, you can probably just build units and go kill him. If your opponents is on equal bases, I would suggest expanding. The good thing about Zerg is that you dont need as many units to keep map control since all of your units are harassment experts. A handful of mutas (5-7) can be enough to contain an opponent while you set up a 3rd AND build a larger army than him.
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      Moderator SCVrush's Avatar
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      For your first expansion, you should never expand in a random location. It is just too risky and random that your opponent scouts you. In addition, people are getting better with scouting so its just not worth it. Build lots of queens and maybe a few crawlers if necessary.

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      Junior Member coolsmelly's Avatar
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      Yeah that all makes sense, it's not something I've tried, but there's a lot of "1 base Zerg" strat going on this past week or so that's looking surprisingly strong, but the reasoning behind it has been either an early push or a natural that's too hard to defend.

      All I'm saying is that there are some maps with hard to defend naturals that have expo's that are easier to defend elsewhere nearby the base.
      It's clear that it' very most often smarter to just use the natural, but my question has more to do with particular maps where it's easier to defend other expo's than your natural.

      I can see that that's not really the way to go, but what about getting a third base up before your opp gets their second?
      coolsmelly, number coming soon (as soon as I check it)

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      Senior Member smagee's Avatar
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      It's clear that it' very most often smarter to just use the natural, but my question has more to do with particular maps where it's easier to defend other expo's than your natural.
      I think the point folks are trying to make is that even on maps with wide open naturals, it is not "easier to defend" a remote expo simply due to the nature of the remote location. In order for it to be defended, you have to either a) Split your army at both locales, or b) Drop tons of static defense. Either option is considered less preferable; if you mean "easier to block/wall off", that's a valid point (although challenging with Zerg in most cases), but I don't think anyone (Zerg in particular) will consider a far-off expansion more defensible than even the most open natural.

      I do know where you're coming from, however; I tend to try the same strategy on those maps (Delta Quadrant is a particular thorn in my side for this issue), but in truth, it rarely pans out.

      I can see that that's not really the way to go, but what about getting a third base up before your opp gets their second?
      In order for this to succeed (and don't get me wrong; it very much can), you have to be absolutely certain that your opponent is turtling in order for some late tech or something. Otherwise, you'll be stuck in the droning phase with no units at all due to the expense of building up three mineral lines. There simply aren't enough larvae (let alone other resources) to build three bases up along with an army that is substantial enough to protect against an opponent that is certainly marshalling forces (since if he hasn't expanded, he's got to be spending the crystal on units instead, right?).

      The only time I've seen the 3-1 base setup succeed is in the mid-to-late stages of the game against an opponent who has been harried enough that he's afraid to leave his base (see: Fruitdealer strategy ).
      -smagee (#948), GMT -8

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      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      The only map I have seen an FE not to the natural was on desert oasis, however he got his gas and pool first for harass and then expanded tot he gold mineral patch. This is the only way i would justify doing an expand that isnt to your natural, as oasis has a distant natural thats open to attack, although the addition of rocks blocks one way lol.

      Ive also done metapolis FE to the gold with success, it all comes down to when you pull it off, i.e. after your pool and gas so you can distract them works, however at 14 food is a dead give away, that and thats when most scouts come and they will see you drone go away ad not reach their base lol
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