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Thread: Starcraft 2 TvZ 1.12 Strategy
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    1. #31
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      I strongly beg to differ. Watch this video AGAIN (because I posted it earlier) and decide for yourself:

      Day[9] Daily #101 - Kawaii Rice TvP Style

      1 Rax Expanding is far from risky. If you throw down a few more barracks after your CC, you can pump enough marines to stay alive and then you will be economically ahead if an opponent is going 1 base all in. If your opponent fast expands, you can scout that being done and you won't have to spam marines to stay alive, you can work on your economy, which if you got 2 orbital commands, it's very hard to beat economically. 1 Rax FE is almost a win win build.
      I watched the first 10 minutes of the first battle and right away i found flaws in the video. Don't get me wrong I love day9 he's awesome and brilliant but he picked the replays where kawaiirice dominates a pretty BAD protoss. I guarantee you if his enemy was a good toss (someone like HuK), he woulda been destroyed.

      I know the 1 barrack command center fast expand strat, in fact i know it to the point that two days ago i beat a 2000 diamond with the same strat at shakuras plateau. Keep in mind we were cross spawned on a big map which is why i did the strat (i can give you replay if ya wants)

      The reason why kawaiirice's strat worked was because

      1. The map has a HUGE cross spawn distance (metalopolis)
      2. The protoss couldn't scout the no gas build therefore he wasn't prepared.
      3. the biggest reason why it worked was that toss WAS TERRIBLE!!! he was so bad! for the following reasons

      a. His money was AT LEAST 600, in fact i saw it at 800-1200 at times when day9 clicked on him. This is HUGE! vs a fast expand strat. If you're going to do a timing push against a fast expand your macro better be crisp. He was pushing and harassing with stalkers while having a 800+ mineral count.
      b. He got the WRONG units! if your enemy goes lots of marines you DON'T get immortals. You get colossus fast and roll the terran. His immortals were just standing at the back because he didnt want to send them in since they will just get eaten up by the marines. so what does toss do? he gets more immortals! - bad bad
      c. his expansion was WAY late because he decided to get more gateways and immortals.

      I will watch the rest of the videos later but I think against a protoss of equal caliber at a map that's not cross spawn, kawaii rice will be at a disadvantage. I'm not saying this strat is bad, in fact i use it myself but only if i'm far away from my opponent.

      The reason I didn't suggest this strat to the OP is because it's alot more difficult to pull off. At early diamonds i got rolled so many times trying to expand this fast (then again i did get marauders not pure marines).

      The replay is also Daily number 101, april 14th. I don't know when the actual game was played but the sc2 was still in beta and people are quite new to the game still (we still are new but not as noob).

      I think this strat is average at most on smaller maps and non cross spawn, it's not solid at all imho. It works well on big maps and cross spawns though, i use it myself =), but even at that i modify the strat a little bit and delay my command center so i can hide my tech more.

      What i do is I get the standard build of 12rack 13 gas so when the probe explores my base the toss will think i'm doing a standard build. I make my first marine and kill the probe then i pull off the SCV from the gas (after i get 50gas) and build a reactor for my barrack and get a command center as soon as i get 400. Once i build the command center i put the 3 SCV back on gas and make another barrack then I pump units and get stim asap.
      Last edited by Antonio Banderes; 11-10-2010 at 02:53 PM.

    2. #32
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      hmmm i just thought of something. ill be on b-net tonight, the best way to find out how this build works is just playing it. We can test it out and try to make it work, ill play as protoss. I am interested to see what it's like from toss point of view against this strat.

    3. #33
      Senior Member Fealorin's Avatar
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      I use this 1 rax FE all the time and it works wonders 1v1 for me. Also the Fortress FE works wonders too. If you watched the rest of the video from Day9, kawaiirice uses the build on steppes of war where the start locations are VERY close. Steppes of war is an ideal rushing map. Maybe the protoss player was bad, but you still can't just throw the entire build order out against protoss even on a small map. You can actually get gas and marauders and stay alive.
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    4. #34
      Super Moderator OneManZerg's Avatar
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      Antonio,

      A couple things. First off, maybe you could not insult people so quickly. I don't understand your logic, your a noob, that is DUUUMB are all comments I've seen you make without fully listening to people. People are more willing to talk when you are nice.

      Secondly (and on the game), check out Brat_ok's play as he often gets stim second and shield first. This is because if you get stim while you have 4 marines, you can easily lose them all very quickly (140 life stimmed vs. 220 life with shields). Also, if you get stim SUPER early you will not at all have medivacs. A couple feigned pushes on you and/or you trying to take out your enemies base and you've stimmed a couple times and all of a sudden your army is all in the red and yellow and will get 1-2 shotted from spine crawlers. I do recognize stim as being the most powerful of the upgrades but early game it can easily put you in a huge deficit and the shield may be more advisable until medivacs or a larger force.

      According to your math:
      150% damage at 35 life
      100% damage at 55 life (you have more than 50% more life here, allowing you to do more damage as well)

      The math works out differently depending on the different situations. In small numbers though, stim may get you killed easier whereas shields will buy you time (precisely what you need early game).

      I am not denying that stim is great. It's amazing, it's what makes MMM so punishing in terms of DPS but there are variations in strategies that all work effectively and this is a variation I have seen used before many times and to great success. Both are good in their own right. =)
      OneManZerg - 971

    5. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by OneManZerg
      Now if he got shields instead of stim he would have been destroyed even before mid game.

      I really can't think of any situation where shields are better to get first... really. Hmm maybe when you're using marines as meat shields for a tank push to contain another terran? even then It's a toss up.

      As an extra thing to note, stim upgrades both marauders and marines, whereas shields are only for marines.

      Hope that helps =D

    6. #36
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      I use this 1 rax FE all the time and it works wonders 1v1 for me. Also the Fortress FE works wonders too. If you watched the rest of the video from Day9, kawaiirice uses the build on steppes of war where the start locations are VERY close. Steppes of war is an ideal rushing map. Maybe the protoss player was bad, but you still can't just throw the entire build order out against protoss even on a small map. You can actually get gas and marauders and stay alive.
      I want to make this strat work as much as you on small maps, believe me i lost soooo many times trying to make this strategy work against toss. Dunno maybe I'm bad and the toss just keeps killing me with an early midgame push? I just get punished so much everytime i try it that's all.


      yeah I see planetary fortress helping alot!
      I just don't like to build a fortress because you need gas and an engineering bay, i like to spend the minerals on an extra barrack and the extra mule will let me get more marines and marauders much quicker.

      hope you're not angry like our buddy OneManZerg don't mean to offend, I just have strong opinions and I like to back them up strongly.

      that's how latinos do it!

    7. #37
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      Argh... I am going through such a difficult stretch right now...

      I'm 75% win:loss TvZ
      50% TvT
      and like 25% TvP

      Seriously... I started playing gold players again.... stomp stomp.. back to plat / diamond... and again a bad stretch.
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    8. #38
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      Hey Antonio,

      I'll also say good for you for being upfront and willing to take constructive criticism. I appreciate your thoughts and views on the subject - the more you guys discuss... the more i'm learning and improving.

      Cheers.
      MavRCK
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    9. #39
      Moderator SCVrush's Avatar
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      So this thread boiled down to:
      1. Stim or shield vs Zerg
      2. Fast CC or No.

      Scvrush's take on Stimpack and Combat Shield
      Getting Stimpack or shield first is obviously a preference and I can see both abilities do well depending on the scenarios. I personally believe Stimpacks benefit the Terran a lot more with a sufficient amount of APM dedicated to unit micro during battle especially above gold leagues. Stimpacks allows the Terran to perform tasks that would be otherwise impossible. I personally use stimpacks to
      1. Get into a good position before a fight, spread my troops while running back to avoid banelings.
      2. Retreat back behind some rocks to get a good position with my troops; avoiding a zergling surround.
      3. With great micro, marines will last a very long time at 35 hp. You could just kit enemy units all day. Take their army out really fast then go for the hatch.

      So at the end of the day, depending on how much micro you have, the result of Stimpack varies greatly. With sufficient micro, Marine/Marauder Stimpack outweighs the effect of the extra hit points for its increased mobility and increased damage. That is kind of why stimpack gets research very often at high levels.

      Combat Shield of the is more of an upgrade of +1 armor. Its takes a zergling 9 hits to take down a marine, Now it takes 11 with combat shield. With +1 armor, it takes 12 hits to kill a marine. If you think of it like that, combat shield is pretty shitty.

      Regarding Fast CC Open:
      I watched the day9 dailies, that protoss is terrible like Antonio said. If you cannot adapt to the enemy, you lose. Who gets immortals for a push when all you see are marines. Maybe he was so used to getting counters to marauders because everyone gets them. Having a timing push with 600 minerals is not acceptable, either expand while you put pressure or go all in to take the Terran's expo out.

      I hope that cleared it up for you guys. Excuse my grammar.

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