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Thread: Starcraft 2 TvZ 1.12 Strategy
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    1. #11
      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      I agree, youll need stim, however if the purpose of the marauders is meat shield, and you can block the lings off from getting a suround i see how this works, however the map pool for such maps is really small, steppes of war it would work, maybe blistering sands if you get them at choke, but I might suggest stim and shells, if you protects your marines well, there is no reason you cant stim your marines from behind and kepp marauders the same, this way if there are any lings coming, you will OWN then, and well roaches get owned by marauders cause of kiting >.<

      But yes I believe stim for early aggression against zerg is crucial, good work though you are on the right track, and a lot of people do similar to stop that FE, as you can guarantee we will sink resources into either more lings or roaches or banelins, all of which you can counter by the time we get to your main.

      Remember zerg cant spend resources on EXTRA units so any excess units they make early the better for you (well to a point, no point dying to 100 ling rush lol)
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    2. #12
      Moderator Flamga's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Antonio Banderes
      When zergs scout this strat they will just simply hold back on drones a bit and make an army to stomp this push, then the real game starts. This is just an opener, it's not meant to kill the zerg, but hurt the zerg as much as you can within a timing window (hence stim owns because you can do more damage within that given window). del pwned ^2

      UknwI-MriteANDuwrongfoo
      It has nothing to do with droning actually, moreso zerg not scouting, all it takes is one drone in your base to see your going aggressive and then change the playstyle. Also regardless of whether units are made, zerg will still finish with his expansion unless you manage to kill it, which means YOU have to sink resources into killing it. The whole point if delaying that expansion the aggression as a zerg player with a delayed expansion wont jump to pool straight away.

      delayed pool ---> easier aggression

      Idealy you want to keep zerg in the corner while you can build a sizable force and harass, win comfortably rather that in the first 10 mins.

      However I still want to see this strat should be interesting
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    3. #13
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      Hey guys,

      I'm glad to have posted something useful.

      Let me clarify... the OP isn't say "don't get stim".

      Not by a long short. He says, get concussive shell and combat shield then stim.

      It's subtle but there's a good reason and I found out playing some diamond zerg why.

      Essentially, your first push with marines is to harass and force the zerg playing to delay drones and make an army.

      Your second push is with concussive and combat shield. And during the push and reinforcement stage, you'll be getting stim.

      Why? Well, your initially army will hit resistance... and while moving into position to take out the expansion, they will get hit again by zerg reinforcements. What you are doing is giving them the health to survive until need reinforcements come in and become the new meat shield. Furthermore, shield is faster.. 30 seconds.. and that's enough to be available when a good sized force is hitting the base.

      http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Marine#Upgrades 110s vs 140s

      If you use stim initially, you're first wave will die to the zerg reinforcements -- they'll be lower on health and the critical mass of units won't be there. However, when the new units come... you micro the new units into the shield position... put the damaged units behind them.

      Remember some dps is better than no dps. Then during the reinforcement phase... you'll take out the FE... then move your group up to the main base. By this point, stim will be done... you can stim with the fresh units.. and the damaged units if they have enough health.

      Remember stim is a loss of health for a temporary boost to dps / speed. After that you're doing the same dps but have less survivability.

      I thought it was bunk initially... so I was always going stim / shell... but I did better and more units overall when I went shield.

      Hope this helps.

      M
      Last edited by Maverick; 11-04-2010 at 05:40 PM.
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      Hey Fealorin,

      I like your FE - PF move. I noted that you walled in and turtled well. The PF is essentially impenetrable in early to mid-game. It's something I was trying often last month without much success. However, to be fair, I'm not as good a player as you. I tend to play platinum - low diamond players and in my experience, they're very aggressive. I wish I had this time to do something in platinum - early diamond as most players I meet tend to 7RR or FE with roaches / mutas coming soon after. It's the harassment that keeps me contained.

      However, what do think if the FE player went roaches and pushed at the 8-9 min mark ignoring your PF? I think with the range increase he could have taken out the 6 marines and moved into the supply line. I think there's a possibility of taking out the main base... while ignoring the PF until later.

      Also, when the zerg player took his mutas and took out your marines, you didn't have any missile turrets up. I think he could have swung low to your mineral line and taken some scvs out before your marine force came up.. then he could have gone east to your PF mineral lines. So while I like the FE - PF -- really do.. I wonder how it would do to a more solid roach push from an aggressive zerg.

      What do you think? Any suggestions?

      Thanks!
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    5. #15
      Moderator Moderas's Avatar
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      I know you have had success with stim second but I can assure you it makes more sense both in timings and in benefit to stim/shield then shells. Against a Zerg army you would need a ridiculous number of marauders for shells to become really beneficial and without stim you can hardly even kite slow lings, let alone blings on creep. Not to mention, the 50% speed bonus to ALL units will keep you from being surrounded much more than a 30% slow on SOME enemies. Stim+ micro is better than shields in every conceivable situation. Stim is the reason MMM beats toss, the reason Bio works v. Zerg, the reason MM can take down siege tanks, even the reason MnM was so dominant in BW. Stim is, not even arguably, the best upgrade in the game and if you have any intentions of making marines or marauders it needs to be researched asap.

      Note- I do not mean to sound harsh, so please dont take it like im talking down to you or anything
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    6. #16
      Senior Member Fealorin's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Maverick
      What do you think? Any suggestions?

      Thanks!
      The range upgrade on roaches is not enough to get even with marines. Marines still have +1 range to roaches. SCVs can easily repair the wall. If roaches do get through, I can surround with SCVs and still pump marines/marauders to take out the roaches. Many protoss players try to do this to me with stalkers. They go around my PF and try to hit my wall and hit my main, but they still fail. The only weakness/concern are stalker+blink rushes, but with well executed play, the terran player can get enough marauders in time to stop this.

      Well, you'd be surprised how well the fortress can hold against big attacks. Not much can break a fortress early game.
      As for holding against a roach push:
      TvZ LT Fast Expand 22-50 - Starcraft 2 Replays - Starcraft 2 Forum

      If you're curious about it in other games, just look through my replays, I think I have some in there that shows its power against a push of some sort and if not, let me know, I will upload some more that shows you how a fortress can hold.
      Last edited by Fealorin; 11-04-2010 at 06:22 PM.
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    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
      Hey guys,

      I'm glad to have posted something useful.

      Let me clarify... the OP isn't say "don't get stim".

      Not by a long short. He says, get concussive shell and combat shield then stim.

      It's subtle but there's a good reason and I found out playing some diamond zerg why.

      Essentially, your first push with marines is to harass and force the zerg playing to delay drones and make an army.

      Your second push is with concussive and combat shield. And during the push and reinforcement stage, you'll be getting stim.

      Why? Well, your initially army will hit resistance... and while moving into position to take out the expansion, they will get hit again by zerg reinforcements. What you are doing is giving them the health to survive until need reinforcements come in and become the new meat shield. Furthermore, shield is faster.. 30 seconds.. and that's enough to be available when a good sized force is hitting the base.

      Marine - Liquipedia Starcraft 2 Wiki 110s vs 140s

      If you use stim initially, you're first wave will die to the zerg reinforcements -- they'll be lower on health and the critical mass of units won't be there. However, when the new units come... you micro the new units into the shield position... put the damaged units behind them.

      Remember some dps is better than no dps. Then during the reinforcement phase... you'll take out the FE... then move your group up to the main base. By this point, stim will be done... you can stim with the fresh units.. and the damaged units if they have enough health.

      Remember stim is a loss of health for a temporary boost to dps / speed. After that you're doing the same dps but have less survivability.

      I thought it was bunk initially... so I was always going stim / shell... but I did better and more units overall when I went shield.

      Hope this helps.

      M
      I feel that you don't understand what i'm trying to say. Stim is better in EVERY WAY in this push.
      You say if I use stim initially, my first wave will die from zerg reinforcements?
      Trust me if I don't have stim they will die even harder.

      Stim means your army lives longer and does more damage.

      When you do this initial push, zerg will have an army and some sunkens also. That army will try to stop you from killing the expansion OR Counter your base.
      Case 1: Zerg defends the expansion: With stim you can kill the army faster and the sunkens faster because you have 50% extra DPS (this is so HUGE I can't even emphasize enough). Not only that, you can micro better with stim... you can micro WAAAAYYYY better with stim.
      Case 2: Zerg counter attacks. With stim you can run back faster to defend your main, or decide to go for his expansion and kill it. This becomes are RACE on who can kill the other faster, guess what? stim will let you kill everything 50% faster! THATS HUGEEEE.

      We can both try this in b-net over the weekend and test it against a zerg. Compare my timing attack with stim and your timing attack with concussive shells and shields. I think mine will be more effective and alot faster. Give me your character code or email and i'll add you in b-net, we can try this.

    8. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Flamga
      One drone will not scout this push, at least you shouldn't let a drone scout this push. Put two marines on your ramp and zerg will be forced to sacrifice an overlord to find out what you're doing.
      Most zergs will drone up because you have to in able to benefit from the expansion. The point of this push is to punish zergs that drone up too much from expanding. Essensially you're trying to catch a timing window where the zerg army is still weak because he's trying to get his economy up. The only way zergs can stop this is to stop droning so much and make an army and some defensive structures (banelings on creep with a mix of ling/roach will be great against this push).

    9. #19
      Moderator SCVrush's Avatar
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      Combat shield and concussive shell in general are pretty crappy against a zerg. You can't slow a swarm down, you have to be able to move at the same speed with stim. Stim hurts you but your army cannot even initiate without stim. A load of baneling will wreck your MM army so fast without stim. It seems this thread has been hijacked of Marines and Stimpacks.

      If you have no mobility, you lose the game as Terran against a good zerg. That is why you do not see too many mech plays. In addition, drop plays, MMM style play is very favored because of early stimpack, healing power and mobility.

    10. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by SCVrush View Post
      Combat shield and concussive shell in general are pretty crappy against a zerg. You can't slow a swarm down, you have to be able to move at the same speed with stim. Stim hurts you but your army cannot even initiate without stim. A load of baneling will wreck your MM army so fast without stim. It seems this thread has been hijacked of Marines and Stimpacks.

      If you have no mobility, you lose the game as Terran against a good zerg. That is why you do not see too many mech plays. In addition, drop plays, MMM style play is very favored because of early stimpack, healing power and mobility.
      Would you high-level terrans recommend a FE into MMM or 4 / 5 rax MM transition into expansion and MMM?

      I personally am favouring the 2nd -- I feel most comfortable when I pressure early and then keep the pressure on.
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